As it happens, I have chat logs of the conversation with the Betrothed where I realized I wasn’t a girl, and Betrothed suggested that it might be valuable to share them as a datapoint for anyone in the same position.

The logs that follow are lightly edited to remove excessive “you’re cute” “no, YOU’RE cute”, unrelated worldbuilding, &c.

Charlie: (i’m very good at being cis)

Betrothed: this is why i have my fan theories babe

Charlie: man it’s not even particularly a fan theory
it’s absolutely true that — alicorn wrote a setting once where everyone is treated as agender until they’re an adult, and then once you’re an adult you can pick a gender or no gender and no choice here is particularly socially marked
and in that universe i’d totally be nonbinary

Betrothed: i…think that means you are but are not inclined to deal with the inconvenience

Charlie: i think that’s, like, a valid use of words but not one i’m inclined to make myself
because it just seems less informative to call me nonbinary than female
but i totally agree that there are reasonable definitions under which i’m nonbinary
incidentally, in a universe where the catholic church is like “legit” about trans people i’m male
or, like, using male pronouns and presenting as male, same internal experience
just ‘cause i desperately wanted to be a priest
occasionally i poke my brain about this whole thing and go “you know a lot of trans people who would’ve described their experiences this way for a while and then went ‘no actually just trans’”
but afaict this continues to be my experience

Betrothed: yeah that makes sense
i think i, like –
just in the interest of Full Disclosure i put some probability on you going ‘no actually just trans’ in a couple years and some on this…not occurring
just partially because i went through ‘no my actual experience is that i’m a girl who has a lot of kinks and weird edge casey attributes’ and then no

Charlie: that seems entirely reasonable
and roughly like my own probability spread
because yeah i know a lot of people who went through that
conveniently i do not anticipate it being a problem for us if this occurs. :P

Betrothed: it really won’t be.

Charlie: like i definitely have experiences like “i enjoy getting to crossdress sometimes” and “it’s a little satisfying that sometimes people read me as male” and “shaving my legs and having long hair give me dysphoria”
i’m just, you know, the equivalent of the technically-bi person who identifies as “gay” because this is more informative
and so i occasionally poll my brain on whether i want to ask people to use “they” experimentally online
and come up with “not particularly”

Betrothed: …man i just realized i never asked whether you ask it about ‘he’
but presumably this is in the same test suite

Charlie: oh yeah occasionally that too
i am pretty certain that i am not in any sense male
like, i’m not particularly averse to “he” or anything, but
…on the other hand, looking back over this, i am absolutely being ridiculous and am nonbinary, oops, did i really need any more life revelations this year

Betrothed: i love you.

Charlie: i love you more.
it’s possible i’d failed to re-evaluate this since deconverting.

Betrothed: i thought that might have been relevant, yes.

Charlie: shut up.

Betrothed: ftr i can keep the smugness down to a gentle glow if you want.

Charlie: no you’re adorable.
hey at least i had a sensible probability distribution.
i am laughing at myself so hard
me, happily cataloguing every incident of being read as male: i’m very cis
me, repeatedly making lists of Descriptions Of My Gender: so very cis
me, experiencing dysphoria: this is such a cis mood

Betrothed: i would like to state for the record that i am EXTREMELY patient

Charlie: shut up i love you.

Betrothed: i love you too.

Charlie: me, in elementary school, submitting requests for what character to be cast as in plays, writing “NOT A GIRL” every time: the boys just have more lines ok
me, as a teenager, sad that i can’t get clothes that fit in the boys’ section anymore: the pockets are so much bigger
me, refusing to go to the women in mathematics ice cream social: affirmative action is dumb and i stand on my principles
me, in middle school, intensely viscerally distressed by taking a class at a co-op where the girl dress code requires skirts: discrimination is WRONG
me, thirteen, intensely distressed by puberty: i just don’t like my body doing things without my permission ok

Betrothed: this is so fucking cleansing

Charlie: me, having fantasies about being approximately a gay guy: haha i really imprinted hard on slash fanfic

Betrothed: having ideal intersex-adjacent genitalia, getting your breasts nommed off in a Meaningful Symbolic Catharsis scene

Charlie: me, wearing pants to church on days i’m particularly anxious because it’s soothing: i just don’t like feeling like i HAVE to wear a skirt
me, contemplating topical T: dicks are just objectively hot ok
me, marking “prefer not to answer” for gender whenever a form lets me: i’m a good ally
me, fondly reminiscing about the time i dressed as tony stark for halloween and lots of people were confused about my gender: i’m very proud of how convincing that costume was
me, delighted every time i use unisex bathrooms: it’s so good that these exist for people who need them
me, pleased by [friend] they-ing me: it’s so good to have empirical confirmation that i’m fine with whatever pronouns

Betrothed: oh my GOD

Charlie: i’m very smart.

Betrothed: i really need to get better at arguing with you

Charlie: yes you do.

Betrothed: i mean – to a certain extent the thing to do there is exactly what i did. but.
(and not say the actual spread on my Probability [Charlie] Goes Oops I’m Nonbinary)

Charlie: me, popping up every time gender is discussed to clarify that i am technically female BUT ONLY TECHNICALLY: it’s just such an interesting topic
me, repeatedly, for years: hey guys datapoint cis girls can have top dysphoria too

Betrothed: you discussing at length with me how gender is BAD AND DUMB. you catching intense contact dysphoria off me.

Charlie: me, vaguely annoyed by [friend]’s gender: okay i’m not going to SAY it because that would be rude but you’re obviously just as cis as i am

Betrothed: you talking to me about how you kink on breast expansion stuff because it is the opposite of what you want

Charlie: shut …. up…..

Betrothed: NEVER
I AM FINALLY FREE. YOU HAVE RELEASED ME FROM MY BONDS

Charlie: me, reading c. s. lewis: oh my god he’s so right about how women in our culture idealize having the physique of an adolescent boy
me, every time someone refers to me as their girlfriend: this feels so weird but i can’t put my finger on why

Betrothed: you being kind of uncomfortable every time you talk about your own shape and you wearing a floofy skirt hitting the same kink button as crossdressing boys
NOW i understand why that turned me on. i was just failing to factor in all my information.

Charlie: oh my god is THAT why you were so fucking into that i love you

Betrothed: I DIDN’T REALIZE

Charlie: me, every time you say “good girl”: honestly it’s really weird and unfortunate that “good boy” is so hot but there’s something so jarring about “good girl”

Betrothed: this is what happens when i try to accommodate your gender. smh
it took me so long to get over ‘this is weird though…..’

Charlie: me, looking at S2P devices: they just seem so CONVENIENT
me, literally toying with buying a packer: idk man it’s just hot
me, having occasional dreams where i have a dick: brains are weird, man
me, moving out of my parents’ house and immediately buying “boy brief” underwear: i just like it better for some reason
me, all my friends trans: sure is weird how i’m the one cis person i know
i was being VERY SENSIBLE and TOTALLY OPEN to the possibility i was trans
…me, fucking worldbuilding a setting with you where my self-insert is Not A Girl When She’s At Sea: this signifies nothing

Betrothed: i wasn’t even going to say it.
(you, while we’re ring shopping, being violently uncomfortable with the idea of wearing anything too floral or girly full-time)

Charlie: my mom: it’s interesting how when a lot of girls go through the “trans” phase, catholic girls go through a phase of wanting to be nuns. something something rejection of uncomfortable female social roles
me, desperately longing to be a nun: sounds plausible yeah
me, at a summer research program, commiserating with a female friend about our shared experience of i’m-female-i-just-hate-it-being-a-whole-thing
said friend, subsequently coming out as nonbinary
me, in college, reading alllllll about transition online: i’m doing Research

Betrothed: …man i kind of
wonder how much Displaced Gender Misery is a factor in your whole brain profile

Charlie: i … don’t think it’s that much but am uh open to learning otherwise, given
it is possibly any suspicious that my depression started right at puberty
i always figured it was just a brain development hormones thing but
me, spending all of puberty refusing to look in mirrors: i’m very self-conscious about my acne
me, teenage, bubbling with happiness when a male friend told me he thought of me as one of the guys
me, playing as male characters half the time in games: it’s terrible how the female characters don’t have good options for short hair
me, in fallen london, immediately selecting “you waste my time with such trivialities when there are individuals wandering london with the faces of squid, SQUID”: haha that’s delightful
me, playing male characters in d&d every fucking time: i guess i just really have the “male is default” thing going on. how problematic of me.

Betrothed: (putting down disconnected pattern stuff about displaced gender misery before i forget - depression coming on right at puberty and with violent top dysphoria, those both dulling down pretty proximately to ‘yeah i low-key wanna get rid of these and also to die’, this - weird nebulous blob about catholicism and transfiguration and metaphysical gender roles and how incredibly sure you were that gay love would be transfigured itself and how soul-exalting that thing about leaving behind the earthly incorrect shape of things was and how you also left the religion and stopped wanting to die fairly proximately, how much a bunch of the closeted trans people i know are REALLY MAD ABOUT…SOMETHING…IT’S (POINTS) THAT)

Charlie: you are. VERY patient.

Betrothed: it’s one of my best skills.
so is my feelings perception score.

Charlie: me, twelve and catholic, immediately believing in trans people when i encountered the concept: idk it just seems obvious

Betrothed: …..the fact that
you had a preexisting lovingly thought out kink for trans guy forced feminization

Charlie: y…..eah
that worked for you in a way it doesn’t when cis people do it.

Betrothed: yeah.
and also got – at one point it just got kind of vicious in a way that alarmed me but
not in
the way that it does when people kink on it from the outside
not the vicious of people who are just using the words and don’t know exactly where to hit

Charlie: the really intense recurring kink for size-shaming trans guys

Betrothed: the fact that it gets to you so fucking much when i’m having a bad top dysphoria day that you can’t hide it when you hide things before you even seem to know you feel them sometimes

Charlie: the fact that a strapless strap-on was like the third sex toy i bought
the thing where i’m very s1 confused that anyone could find my body sexually attractive, it’s FEMALE
the meticulous spreadsheet of types of intersex conditions i made you way back when
honestly SO much the thing where i was occasionally silently judgey of certain enbies and then felt deeply guilty about it
but come ON that one was clearly just as female as me
they just felt the need to make a whole PRODUCTION out of it
occasionally guiltily contemplating the fact that i was pretty sure people who talked about “transtrenders” had any point. obviously not all or even most enbies but. of course you were going to get some impressionable teenagers going for something so (appealing) trendy
how often i had the thought “i’m not nonbinary but wouldn’t it be cool if i were”
me, adolescent, gradually covering my bedroom mirror with notes and stickers: it helps me remember things
me, enduringly intensely upset that the smol is attending that one co-op with the dress code, even though SHE loves it there: i just really disapprove of their educational philosophy. i think it’s bad for kids.
me, failing to acquire Any female socialization: i guess being homeschooled is like that
me, eleven, pleased when other fencers slipped up and called me “sir” when i was refereeing: it’s just funny
me, seven, pleased when people looked at me and my long-haired male best friend and got our genders reversed: see i’m not like other girls i’m cooler
how VERY FIRM i was that it says RIGHT IN THE BIBLE that in christ there is no more male or female
i am just gonna have an ongoing personal epiphany over here sorry don’t mind me

Betrothed: no no i am actually reading it all as it comes out it’s
both satisfying and — i am really really fucking glad because i love you and now you know.
and now we can help and we can talk to you about it

Charlie: i would like to say that i am VERY PROUD OF MYSELF for looking back over things and going “actually…” and then “….maybe i should think some more about…” and then “…no, i already know, i am just embarrassed” and then saying it
being right is important

Betrothed: i am also really proud of you
really really proud.

Charlie: me, for a fucking decade, having fantasies themed around the whole ancient greek lover/beloved thing: look it’s just a dynamic you don’t really get outside of gay couples that’s all
me, avoiding het fic in favor of slash: well obviously i prefer being attracted to both characters
me, eeeeendlessly daydreaming about crossdressing-lady-knight-esque scenarios: look the male role is just more fun

Betrothed: you keep calling me out too!!!

Charlie: me, jealous of Middle Sister having a boy’s name for a middle name: it’s just cool and counterculture and stuff
me, eleven, sooooooo delighted by being an altar boy: i’m very devout

Betrothed: …all the fantasies about being Forced To Be A Boy were sort of revealing also
that’s so classic
and we never quite got ourselves to do it too much because it was based on false premises.

Charlie: (i am PRETTY sure that the thing is in fact “nonbinary and getting plenty of the female side of things” not “male” but i acknowledge my track record of assessing these things is not stellar)
god. SO many forced-to-be-a-boy fantasies
really really desperately into “you’re gay so i will be a boy for you”

Betrothed: because then it’s for someone else’s sake, even.
they’re GOOD FANTASIES too

Charlie: me, buying men’s tank tops on amazon: i have no idea why this feels so Forbidden But Appealing
me, aggressively avoiding lace and ruffles and ribbons: they’re just so GIRLY
(me, looking at porn gifs of women being whipped on the breasts: it’s just hotter on the back idk why)
(me, thinking about baby names: i just think girls’ names that nickname to boys’ names are really cute)
(me, stealing your boy clothes,)
WHY ARE THERE SO MANY FEELINGS. PUT SOME BACK

Betrothed: i will give you so many hugs

Charlie: they’re not even BAD feelings just
SO MANY
(me: gender is evil and should be abolished and anyone who disagrees because they “like” “their” “gender” is just fucking selfish idk what to tell you)
(me, setting pseudonymous online accounts to “male” half the time when it doesn’t affect anything: it’s just good infosec)
very. smart.

Betrothed: see we laugh but it’s so easy to just build the rationalizations as things come up
and so you have a Very Good Explanation for all the individual bits

Charlie: this is … exactly what deconverting was like
(me: there’s no particular reason i know offhand what size men’s shoes i wear)
(me, learning that boys and girls tend to carry books differently and immediately switching how i do it: fuck stereotypes)
me, thirteen, crying on my dad that i have a personality that would be FINE if i were a BOY but i SUCK at being a GIRL
so … smart

Betrothed: i think, uh. that well is deep and wide too
there’s a lot of, i think
“i’m just not allowed to be the thing i’m supposed to be and i have to be small and weak and delicate and soft”
that is displacement
not all of it obviously
but
some

Charlie: it’s …. possible

Betrothed: we’re gonna have to do a Girl Clothes Purge aren’t we

Charlie: me: but i
also me: the thing you’re about to say is not “i like dresses”, it’s “i look better in dresses”
me: i DO though

Betrothed: man i thought that too.
about me i mean.

Charlie: ….weird.
(my mom TOLD me i looked better in dresses though)

Betrothed: your mom is wrong about sooooo many things
i was like “yeah but with my figure and my face i just have to look ultra-girly to look good at all”

Charlie: i kept wearing khakis and button-downs in my early teens and she was like honey the women in our family have figures these a-line dresses are just so much more flattering for you

Betrothed: >:(

Charlie: she wasn’t WRONG

Betrothed: i didn’t think my mom was either!!

Charlie: (me, optimizing my wardrobe for being able to grab any two items from it and put them on without looking in the mirror and be fine: it’s very practical)
(me, brainhacking out of caring what i looked like: i’m so smart, all my female friends have body image issues but not me i fixed it)
me, eighteen, intensely distressed about not fitting into the khakis still folded in the bottom of my drawer anymore: this is about weight
me, every time i gain weight: aaaa terrible i have HIPS and THIGHS and

Betrothed: okay can we like
can we go Nonbinary Wardrobe Thrifting sometime we both need this

Charlie: yesplease
i’m. so. smart.
i was REALLY TRYING VERY HARD to be open to the possibility!!

Betrothed: it’s hard. you “explain” things and then take them out of your data pool
and then you get to the point where you put “transgenital” on your dumb tumblr bio and you wish desperately that you were a trans girl so you could have a dick and you describe yourself as wanting to be a gay guy but like As A Joke Because Of Your Kinks Ha Ha and

Charlie: me, a really embarrassing number of times: i realize how much this sounds like a closeted trans opinion but me, as a teenager, reading up on intersex conditions that can manifest during puberty and Hoping

Betrothed: GOD SAME
we’re BOTH very smart
(and you can’t read futanari manga because it makes you sick with jealousy and you were so incredibly pleased for the rest of the night that one time a guy called you young man in a restaurant and)

Charlie: me: man it’s awkward though that transphobic people are in fact right about the phenomenon where straight cis girls read slash fanfic and convince themselves they want to be gay guys

Betrothed: it turns out that, in fact,
[headmate] is just still “(thoughtful face while reclining homosexually) this explains so much”